Lindsay over at Babble-on wrote a rather interesting (if lengthy) post concerning whether or not the fatosphere could be a community (and while I would normally link to this, Lindsay has decided to remove her blog. She will be sorely missed.) based purely on the definition of community. It has earned a couple of readings from me.
I am usually a lurker in the world. Not because I don’t have anything to say, but because I don’t really enjoy disagreeing with people. There are a lot of reasons for that, but it is another blog post altogether. So I generally don’t feel very “accepted”, as it were, into the fat acceptance/activist community. I also find that while I read a lot of the blogs, and they’re extremely well written, touching, and all that, I don’t really relate. As I’ve told Lindsay before, I am often the minority of the minority, something I like to refer to as 1%ers. While I understand that not everyone agrees with everyone else, usually though, people are able to find their group. I haven’t found mine yet. Anyhow, to my point.
I created this blog in order to create a sense of community in a way. I want it to be both accepting and political. I am an asexual, poly, married, fat woman who tries to live naturally and loves animals. However, you don’t have to be any or all of that in order to be here. I believe in the freedom of speech, the right of religion, and limiting the government. Yet, I welcome all opinions and thoughts. That doesn’t mean you can go on a tirade. I won’t allow people to be attacked or insulted, but conversation, debate, discussion, etc., are all welcome no matter what your stance is. Whether you’re fat or thin, dieting or not, a vegetarian or meat-lover, you’re welcome here. I post what I’m interested in, what intrigues me, thoughts I have, but that doesn’t mean I believe only my beliefs and thoughts and ideals are acceptable.
I want to provide an ear for people, a forum, a connection, because there is so little of that nowadays. So whether you’re just looking to have a shoulder to cry on, someone to connect with on a certain idea, advice on what to do with a lover or friend or parent, or just to read and explore, then please feel free. I’m open for any questions you may have, and I hope that my readers will be as well (though they have the option not to be, of course).
There was also a post by Big Liberty concerning being a Bad Fatty Revoluntary. I like this. I see a lot of posts on the Fat-o-sphere feed, and The Fat Liberation, about being healthy. Healthy this, healthy that, healthy, healthy, healthy. I don’t really prescribe to this mentality. Though I don’t knock it, it’s just not my cup of tea. I believe a person should be able to smoke, drink, drug all they want to. I believe we should be able to eat whatever we want, exercise or not, have sex or not, basically do whatever the hell we want without getting shit for it all the time. Yes, I do understand that we’re all interconnected. I don’t believe in hurting someone while we’re doing what we want, this isn’t about anarchy or complete chaotic freedom, it’s about autonomy and choice. I am likely a bad fatty. I don’t exercise, I like soda, I eat processed food. I’m not telling everyone else to do these things, just letting you know that I am one of “those” fatties. However, I still deserve to be treated with respect. My health is none of anyone else’s damn business. However, if you’re a health fatty, you’re more than welcome to be here.
There are a lot of issues I’m uncertain of. I don’t know if I agree with HAES. The concept sounds good to me, but I’ve been hearing a lot of negative things about the people who advocate this type of lifestyle. For instance, there was a post on Fat Lot of Good concerning Linda Bacon’s Health at Every Size Book. A commenter claimed to have attended a seminar by Linda and made a couple accusations (please read the comments to find out). Linda’s response was not very promising to me, and so I reiterated those questions only to have LInda respond that she would not “join the fray”. I admit I am confused by this. An advocate of the HAES movement refusing to discuss what she teaches. There was another review on the Fatosphere, which I can’t find now but if someone wanted to link to I would greatly appreciate it, which discusses the book “Eat Well”. Which is another pusher of vegetables, whole grains, and whole foods. I tend to find these things incredibly classist and completely against the concept of HAES and FA. I don’t understand why people in the movement are trying to define, yet again, what is acceptable fat and what isn’t. I’m trying to do more research, but I am leaning towards a No. However, if you’re a HAES practicer, you’re welcome here and I hope you’ll chime in when I get things wrong or am confused on issues.
I’ve gotten a little wordy, as I tend to do. Bottom line, everyone is welcome here and everyone’s opinions and thoughts and conclusions need to be respect. We may not agree, but we can still support one another.
Amen. Love this post.
I too find that fat activism has, in some spaces, intersected with a very firm desire to be seen as “healthy.” I think some of these spaces thrive on their myth-busting power – they are living counterexamples to the claim that all you need to do is eat X and run like Y, and you’ll be thin.
However, they have the tendency to leave a good many fat people swinging in the breeze. The point isn’t at the end of the day whether or not fat can be healthy – health is simply an excuse for using fat people as scapegoats for various ills or representations of sins. Whether we are healthy or not, I think doesn’t really matter to those who hate us. Why then are press-release junk science findings so powerful and popular even to the point of being advocated by PCPs, while true science (and true statistics) is so easily ignored?
If that is the case – that health is just an excuse – our focus shouldn’t be on “health.” Counterexamples are great, but at the end of the day we’re still playing their game of “health” = better citizen, or “unhealthy” = immoral and catching.
I openly distrust HAES. I don’t think it really helps fat people, and I think Linda Bacon’s book is a diet book in disguise. It still assumes that there are good and bad foods, and that we should be focusing intensely on what’s going into our mouths, and that we can make ourselves healthier or not through some kind of eating regime.
Thanks again for this post.
I totally agree. I’m probably one that would be considered a “bad fatty” because I pretty much eat what I want, how much I want, when I want it (and it’s not always “good” food). I exercise when and how and how much I want, which probably isn’t enough for for HAES, but it is enough for Health At My Size (my personal size, not applicable for anyone else). When “health” becomes a moral imperative, and so-called lack of “health” is seen as a moral failing, then something is seriously wrong with our attitudes about health. Disregarding science in favor of marketing spin is what created the “obesity epidemic”, and anytime I see anything in the news that advances more reasons for diseases being “caused” by obesity, I have to wonder who is going to make money off those reasons and the “cures” for them.
I enjoyed your paragraph about being a 1%er. I can definitely relate to that.
When I first discovered FA, I found that while I immediately agreed with the general message, it took me a very long time to understand the “science” (or rather, collection of rough guesses) surrounding it. By now I have arrived at a place where I have my own set of theories that make sense in my head and I will believe in them until someone comes up with credible evidence for something else, but that part is just about facts … when it comes to having an actual opinion on HAES, I’m still a little undecided.
I know two people who tried to kill themselves and watched two others go through a psychotic episode. I’ve met several who desperately wanted to stop smoking but couldn’t. I also have an idea what it must be like to have an addiction or an eating disorder due to my own mental issues, which are so strange that I don’t even have a name for them yet.
Being aware of all of these things makes it rather hard for me to say, “Well, I’ll trust every single person on this planet to make rational decisions and will not be worried if they smoke too much, drink too much or engage in other kinds of risky behaviour.”
Mind you, I don’t consider eating too much of X or too little of Y (or daring to be fat) to be a part of that category at all. There simply isn’t enough evidence for that. But when it comes to things that are really unhealthy? Then, I guess, I turn into one of those annoying “I’m just worried for your health” people because I’m way too nice to stand by and watch.
Maybe I’m totally missing the point here, but I have trouble looking at HAES as a moral imperative, I see it as happy people lending unhappy people a hand. It’s not like they’re forcing anyone who’s already happy to take it as well, you know what I mean??
Tiana, I do understand your reasoning, though I don’t agree. It’s not up to me to trust anyone else to make sound, rationale decisions. I am not superior to them, and my opinions and ideals do not hold more value. While I may see someone else’s decision as being unhealthy, or unethical, or down right evil, it is not for me to pass judgment. I am certainly human, and do not abstain from judgment at all times and I do find myself wanting to change people’s actions. However, at the core of the issue I still feel strongly that it is not my place and I try to live by that. Everyone’s perceptions color what they view to be right or wrong, and every situation is different. There is no black and white and therefore I cannot, in good conscious, dictate how people act.
I also don’t think it’s a “nice” situation. I understand that you feel compassion towards a person, I do it all the time, and want to do everything you can to help as you see it, yet really examining the situation reveals it’s not about nicety. I love people and I don’t want to see them hurt, however trying to control them and change their behavior is about power, not compassion. I do understand the dark side of addiction, mental illness, and other factors which contribute to someone not being able to make “sound” decisions, however, I still don’t hold the right to make decisions for that person. A person has a right to their own autonomy no matter the circumstances. A person with a mental disorder has the right to decide whether or not they are medicated, and a person with an addiction has a right to decide whether or not they receive help. We cannot make these decisions for them, and I don’t feel that it is right to pass judgment on them for their choices.
I do see some moral imperative in HAES, and though I see where you are coming from, I also hold concern because your argument could be applied to any diet, WLS, or exercise plan. I feel as though if HAES is the turning point to someone’s life that enables them to be happy, perhaps some examination should be made to why. The same way I feel that one should examine why losing 10 pounds makes them happy.
A person with a mental disorder has the right to decide whether or not they are medicated? Well, excuse me, but that’s a pretty strange thing to say. Perhaps you don’t know how certain conditions can influence people. In some cases, if a person with a severe mental illness tells you that they don’t want to take their meds, that’s not them. It’s the illness speaking, and as soon as they’re back to normal they will be grateful that you didn’t listen to them. I can’t comprehend your perspective at all, it sounds too much like “Let people be die if that is their wish.”
I also hold concern because your argument could be applied to any diet, WLS, or exercise plan.
Yes, it can. And that’s okay. As long as the person recommending the thing in question is not disregarding evidence in order to make money, why not let them try and help others?
I feel as though if HAES is the turning point to someone’s life that enables them to be happy, perhaps some examination should be made to why. The same way I feel that one should examine why losing 10 pounds makes them happy.
No, no, that’s not what I meant. I was talking about physical reactions such as feeling better due to getting more exercise and fresh air or something.
Yes, I do believe people should be able to die if they wish. I also am fully aware of what effect mental disorders can have on a person. I know that a majority of homeless people are in the position they’re in because they refuse to be medicated for their ailments. And this is a decision they make /on/ the medication. They don’t like the way their body reacts, specifically those who are schizophrenic. It sounds to me as though you would forcibly medicate someone with a mental disorder, because you think it is correct. And while I understand that impulse, it’s also a great concern to me because how far does the need to make people do things /we/ deem appropriate stretch? It is no different than folks refusing to let women have abortions or homosexuals be married or PoC having equal rights.
I’m not going to respond to the other two things, because I feel we have come to a crossroads there and any further discussion would likely spur unpleasantness.
It took me a while to come back here and read your response because I couldn’t stop thinking of what would have happened to all those people I know who’ve had decisions made for them against their will if, indeed, nobody had done so. I wonder what you would say to the fact that all of them thanked their oh-so-evil saviours later instead of telling them to fuck off and let them be crazy in peace, but to be honest I’m not sure if I could deal with finding out the answer. Apparently the situations I have witnessed affected me more than I thought, and I sincerely thank you for bringing it to my attention, if accidentally. I doubt I will ever understand your position because experience has taught me that it does not seem to be applicable to real life, but at least I now know that some people think that way. Sorry for going a little off topic.
I just wanted to say that I have severe PTSD and I refuse to be medicated because I don’t trust the science behind what I’ve read regarding the kinds of medications I can take. Additionally, there is very little evidence anything but a personality-altering cocktail of Skittles can help my disorder.
However, one of the possible consequences of PTSD can be suicide. I even have an attempted suicide in my family.
Taking all that into account, do you think I should be forcibly medicated?
I will add that the idea my health is someone else’s business, regardless of their concern or their belief that they know what is better for me than I do, is the problem. It’s the same “concern” being expressed by those who want to impose other sets of moral values on me – regarding weight, for instance, or religion, or politics. Just because some of these sets of moral values have to do with “good” health and some having nothing to do with health, doesn’t change the fact that my life, body, and mind are my own and no one else’s to do with what I wish.
I am in agreement with the sentiments expressed by Big Liberty & Vesta44. I distrust the whole “HAES” movement because, reading & studying everything I can find about it, it has indeed become nothing more than another ‘diet in disguise’. I know & trust someone who knows a lot more than most of us about the real beliefs & motivations of those who get so much approbation & admiration in the fat community, & Linda Bacon is definitely one who wants to persuade people to live certain ways, to be ‘fitter’ &, according to her, ‘healthier’, with the underlying hope that they will eventually also become thinner, because for all the nice words, people like Bacon (& Glenn Gaesser, Paul Campos, etal.) DO really want us to be at least somewhat thinner, & they REALLY want us to be ‘good’ fatties, if fat we must be, & PROVE that we are earning rights & respect & access by living ‘right’. The REAL science, based upon real studies & honestly evaluated results not bought & paid for by any ‘anti-obesity’ interests, does not indicate that there are any ‘good’ or ‘bad’ foods, certainly no “superfoods” (as we always having shouted at us by any number of crackpots, most of whom have their own books with their own magic number listed), or that eating any particular way or exercising will keep us from getting any disease or make us live a minute longer. Any disease can happen to anyone at any time & we ALL die & more than a few of the “I eat perfectly & exercise until I drop” crowd do indeed drop, often while working out, at a very early age. Most of what they want to blame on ‘lifestyle’ & tell us is our ‘personal responsibility’ is the result of genes, dumb luck, &, oh, yes, considering that I am pushing 60, I should not forget, aging. My generation, the baby boomers, is the largest single generation in the history of this country, & we are getting older; people get more health problems as they age & the majority of us are also likely to gain some weight until we get really old, when we tend to lose, & dieting increases our mortality risks, while following the natural process seems to help many of us live longer. However, regardless of that, how we live, eat, exercise, or whatever, is no one’s business but our own. There are no magical answers to living longer & being healthy &, even if there were, we don’t owe it to anyone to follow that prescription. And this is coming from one who for years was one of the “but I am only moderately fat, I eat healthy food, & I exercise (for long periods of time as much as four hours daily), so of course I can be fat & healthy..SEE?!” crowd. I am from a family of people who eat or ate what they damn well pleased or (since poverty was also a factor) what they could get, maybe did a lot of hard work of one kind or another much of their lives but did not exercise, & many of whom have smoked for years or who drank either socially or heavily, but still who mostly have lived well into their late 80’s & 90’s. I am 59 myself, & I have two fat brothers, considerably fatter than I in fact, who are 70 & 73. The younger one has been an alcoholic since he was 15 & the other one smoked for over 45 years before he quit. I am sorry, but Dr. Bacon & the others have not proven anything to me to suggest that living a certain way has any great benefits, certainly not enough so that governments, insurance companies, pharmaceutical manufacturers, or anyone else should have the right to tell us how to live.
And I would also like to say that it seems to be to indicate a pretty sad state of affairs in ‘fat acceptance’ when someone can go to a ‘fat positive’ list & say the same basic things we have said here about the flaws in HAES & that there is no proof that living according to HAES or any particular progam helps people to be healthier & the members of the list are told by its owner, who is supposed to be a leading light in fat activism, to ignore this person & treat him like a troll. I consider myself a passionate fat activist, but I am not thrilled about being a member of a movement which seems to believe that anyone not totally dedicated to believing in & living by the principles of HAES is a troll.
Thanks for joining in on the conversation Patsy.
I would like to ask a couple of things:
1. Why do you include Glenn Gaesser and Paul Campos in your declaration that they essentially want us all to be healthy and therefore thin?
2. Who are you referring to here: & the members of the list are told by its owner, who is supposed to be a leading light in fat activism, to ignore this person & treat him like a troll.
3. “I know & trust someone who knows a lot more than most of us about the real beliefs & motivations” would you like to share with us whom you’re speaking of and what they’re saying concerning this?
4. Do you feel by saying “see, my family is ‘unhealthy’ and fat and we’re fine” is similar to someone saying “see, I lost weight and you can do it too”?
5. Would you please share links or names of studies concerning this line: The REAL science, based upon real studies & honestly evaluated results not bought & paid for by any ‘anti-obesity’ interests, does not indicate that there are any ‘good’ or ‘bad’ foods, certainly no “superfoods” (as we always having shouted at us by any number of crackpots, most of whom have their own books with their own magic number listed), or that eating any particular way or exercising will keep us from getting any disease or make us live a minute longer.
No, I am certainly not suggesting that my family is fat & live so-called ‘unhealthy’ lifestyles is like “I lost weight & you can too.” I am actually trying to make the opposite point, that no one gets any guarantees, no one lives forever, & my own experiences over nearly 60 years have shown me that there is no ‘right’ lifestyle or diet, that people who live a long time & those who die young do not necessarily live a certain way. And actually my family, most of whom have been fat, are not particularly unhealthy & I have myself been to doctors far less than many others I know. Of course, part of that is a story in & of itself, because, based on early personal experiences with the medical community & of others in my family, I hate, fear, & distrust doctors & only go when I MUST. I am also “independent as a hog on ice” & tend to bristle when anyone tells me how I MUST live. I live in central Maine & have spent my life around those who are at or below or just above the poverty level…farmers, fishermen, laborers of various kinds. My own observation has been that most of us around here live as long as the national average & in many cases longer & that many of those who have lived over 100 love foods such as Twinkies, Big Macs, KFC, etc., & talk about having their little ‘jolt’ or eating pancakes & sausages or bacon & eggs every morning. One thing most of them seem to have in common is being independent & cantankerous as hell. And I don’t think that worrying about people being ‘healthy’ in order to deserve acceptance & access is a great way to go. I spent too many years trying to show myself as the ‘good’ fatty with the ‘healthy’ lifestyle & it is only retrospectively that I understand why I alienated others in the fat liberation community by doing so. Fat people should have no more responsibility to live a ‘perfect’ life & ‘prove’ their worth of rights, access, opportunity, & respect than thin people do. And I see this culture, the Big Money interests, the politicians, leading us down a road to a world where someone else is telling all of us how to live & punishing us for not meeting their criteria. I personally prefer to live in a world where people like my alcoholic brother can eat lard & drink whole milk chased by a quart of whiskey, & regardless of how much I might wish he would stop drinking, it is nobody’s damn business but his because he is an adult.
Actually, my source about the science is no great secret, as it is Sandy Schwartz, of Junkfoodscienceblogspot. She has plenty of links, plenty of science which she quotes in nearly every post & does far better, more thorough, & more professional research than I ever could. She has written numerous posts about these subjects, including about how many studies indicate that huge amounts of antioxidants not only do not offer extra protection but can have negative effects, research showing no overall differences in health or mortality risks between those eating one or two servings of fruit & veggies daily & those eating five or more, several posts referencing the longterm, huge women’s studies which indicated no benefits to a lowfat diet, & on & on, especially her series on the many “obesity paradoxes’, whereby we fat people, who are supposed to be killing ourselves with our fat, are healthier, living longer, handling surgery, recovering better, &/or surviving terminal diseases longer than thin people on average. As for my feelings about Gaesser & Campos, I have read their books & owned their books & read other quotes from them elsewhere. The second half of “Big Fat Lies” is basically a diet & Gaesser has written at least two diet books since that book. Campos is very conflicted &, however sanely he seems to write about fat people, he cannot tolerate himself fat; he lost 55 pounds in the process of researching & writing “The Obesity Myth” & he ‘controls’ his weight by avoiding many of the foods he would like to eat & by exercising compulsively, running to keep himself thinner than he should be. It seems as if virtually everyone who writes about fat & presents himself or herself as being on ‘our’ side has some agenda & draws the line somewhere…at people who are ‘too fat’ or who do not ‘live right’ & it generally seems as if most of them send the message that, “you can be somewhat fat, as long as you are not TOO fat, & be okay”, or “If you are eating a perfectly balanced diet, not overeating, & exercising enough (However that person defines ‘enough’) & you are still fat, we will accept you. However, if you eat a lot of ‘junk’ food & don’t like to exercise, or cannot exercise, or do not move enough, we want you to feel bad & guilty & fix yourself.” I myself was launched, about nine years ago, into my last 3 1/2 year period of compulsive exercise (3-4 hours every day, including at least 1500 stomach crunches) at least partly by Gaesser’s insistence that it is hazardous to a woman’s health to have a waist measurement over 35″.
One of the officers of NAAFA, which now always promotes HAES, eating right, plenty of exercise, etc., in its newsletters, was quoted as saying, “Most fat people don’t know how to eat right or exercise & take care of themselves. We don’t want to be seen as ‘condoning’ fatness.” Since when is the natural diversity of body size something shameful which needs to be ‘condoned’ OR condemned by anyone, most especially those who claim to be fighting for our civil rights?
As for the person who disagreed about the HAES business on a list & was labeled a troll, I do not know his identity, but it was on a Fat Studies list & so I understand Marilyn Wann told the members to regard this person as a troll. Just for the record, I was a regular poster at Marilyn’s Gabcafe bulletin board for over 9 years & I stopped posting voluntarily because the board was overtaken by those preaching HAES the lifestyle (diet in disguise), claiming that we need to be hypervigilant against “lifesytle diseases”, at least one person seeming to be convinced that almost all fat people are insulin resistant, etc., & it got to the point where I got tired of arguing & couldn’t tolerate reading such drivel written by so many people who so obviously are controlled by fear, guilt, & who honestly seem to believe that their fat bodies are out to get them & will shorten their lives. I will also confess that I stopped trying to post on BFB probably two or three years ago after being constantly either ignored or attacked when I posted any belief counter to the “we must constantly work to be as ‘healthy’ as we can & prove ourselves as acceptable fat people’ riff. For me, the last straw was when a woman told me that my grandmother, who lived to be 90 eating what she liked, cooking with lard, not exercising, etc., would have lived to be 110 if she had cooked with olive oil, which is almost certainly not true, & besides, what the hell is the great virtue of necessarily living so long that you are wearing diapers, eating Pablum, & cannot remember your own name? My grandmother had a long life & she lived it on her terms & lived it passionately, including regarding food, which is also my choice, whether I die tomorrow or 40 years from now. For these reasons, I rarely post comments anymore & was moved to do so here because of my strong feelings of distrust of the whole HAES thing.
And the other ‘crackpots’ to whom I am referring is kind of an umbrella term for the people who push books with titles like “Ten…or 14…or 25 SUPERfoods You MUST EAT” or the idiots who have books & infomercials where they yap endlessly about their obsession with how much people shit, if I must say so, & want us to believe that we can all live almost forever if we just cleanse our colons thoroughly enough & the various other ones who try to see how much money they can make off the frightened & insecure by pushing their cure of the week. It seems to me that most people, & that includes most commenters & bloggers in the fat community, are so damned obsessed with living ‘right’ & living “healthy” & trying to find all the ‘answers’ that they seldom truly relax, own their own lives & bodies, & just live. I am going to be 60 years old in September &, yes, I have overall decent ‘health’ habits…no smoking, drinking, drugging, a regular amount of moderate exercise, pretty regular sleeping habits, flossing, etc. However, I don’t know what the magic answers to long life or perfect health are, though it does seem as if it usually helps to choose one’s ancestors well; all I know is that this is MY life, MY body, & it is not up to Linda Bacon, or Marilyn Wann, or any insurance or pharmaceutical company, or Barack Obama & his tame tv pseudo-doctor to tell me how to live my life in my body & I will continue to distrust & question anyone who claims that anything, including HAES, is the secret for which we should all be searching. I used to believe in that ‘eat right & exercise” creed myself & certainly Marilyn stated it blithely in her book…”You want to know the secret of being healthy & living longer? Eat right & exercise.” Sorry, Marilyn, but it is just not that simple & taking that line causes insufferable smugness among those who believe that they do measure up,as well as incredible fear, guilt & anxiety, usually totally unfounded, among the rest of us. How healthy we are, what diseases we get, when we get them, & how long we live is NOT something which we can control by “lifestyle choices” & I get tired of the fact that a lot of powerful, influential, overpaid people keep impressing the idea that it is upon so many & keep pushing the belief that, if anything bad happens to us, it is all our fault & we must always take “personal responsibility” for everything.
Dr. Jim Fixx believed that running could almost guarantee immortality, he wrote books about it, & ran thousands of miles, until he dropped dead of a heart attack at age 51. The man (His name escapes me) who invented the Power Bar built an empire on health & lived that way, & dropped dead in the Post Office at 51. So many others in their 30’s, 40’s, 50’s who eat ‘right’, exercise seriously, are sometimes vegetarians, & usually thin drop dead suddenly at early ages. And many others who live all ‘wrong’ (including the boss of one of my friends, who drinks, smokes, is a generally miserable old witch, but is still going at 84) go on & on. So, yes, I question, I think for myself, I distrust what I see as snake oil sales techniques, & I call bullshit. For that reason, even though I am a passionate fat activist, I don’t fit in with most of what passes for fat acceptance these days & most of fat acceptance seems, to ME, about trying to pass, to fit in, to do things ‘right’ & make up somehow for being fat.