In The Election Aftermath

I’ve refrained from posting about politics. Mostly because everyone else is talking about it so much, I was sick of it, and thus I’m sure a lot of others are sick too. I did vote and it was for Obama. I wanted to vote for a third-party candidate, because I wanted to speak out about the two party system our country seemed to be focused on, but this was such a pivotal election. I was terrified McCain would win, and I would never forgive myself if I didn’t vote for a party that had a chance of being elected. So there you go. I did experience a couple things on Facebook which I wanted to share with you all.

To protect people’s privacy, I’m going to call my friend Gandalf, who has two other friends: Shelob and Sauron.

Gandalf just donated his status to get out the vote for Barack Obama on Nov 4. Donate your status: http://causes.com/election/26350696?m=773350e e.via Causes – 8:55pm

Shelob at 9:05pm November 2
Unless you want to vote for LIFE, then pick someone else.

Gandalf at 9:17pm November 2
I don’t know that the whole pro-life/pro-choice debate is even worth having. Regardless of whether or not Obama or McCain is elected, neither one has the direct power to reverse Roe vs. Wade, so I’m not sure it particularly matters where they stand on the issue either way. Regardless, the whole abortion debate… it’s a fundamental belief a person has, and no matter how many convincing arguments you cite to support one side, the other side has equally convincing arguments to support theirs. The only difference is people on either side have chosen to weight one set of arguments more important to themselves than the other. No debate will change that.

Instead of the polarizing “YOU WANT TO KILL BABIES” vs “YOU HATE WOMEN AND ARE DENYING THEM THEIR RIGHT TO CHOOSE” argument, can we not agree instead to debate something more constructive, like how to lower the number of unwanted/teenage pregnancies?

ME at 4:01am November 3
I love you Gandalf and I think you make a good point. However, since you don’t have someone else dictating what you can and can’t do with your body, I think you can easily take that position. The problem, for me, is not that simply Roe vs. Wade but the fact women don’t have autonomy. Do you realize how difficult it is for a woman to be able to say she doesn’t want children? Not only are there romantic problems, especially with heterosexual, and societal ones (society seems to have adverse reactions to adoption. For some reason, a child sharing DNA w/ a parent makes them more accepted than one who doesn’t, and a wife isn’t fulfilling her duties if she doesn’t produce heirs, and apparently the whole purpose of life is to produce children), but doctors won’t even allow a woman to decide if she can be sterile. A man can get a vasectomy whenever he want without anyone’s permission, including his wife. However, a woman can’t get her tubes tied, or other forms of sterilization, without a long fight. If she is married, then she has to get her husband’s permission and prove this to doctor. If she is under 25 then she has to get several doctors to okay it. If she is over 25 then she still has to prove herself. Even if she’s in her 40s and childfree, doctors are reluctant. If a woman chooses to abstain from sex so she doesn’t get pregnant then she is considered a prude, or frigid, or a slew of other things. You know how difficult it is to live in our culture without sex. Anyway, it’s about more than just abortion.

Shelob at 9:54am November 3
You bring up some excellent points. Please understand I am answering you both in a soft voice with my blood pressure not accelerated in the least. Life is a rugged journey, no doubt. I am facing some really serious health issues myself, however, I believe you both have a choice. You make your choices depending upon your experiences and your beliefs. Your parents, teachers, and friends have helped you to formulate your opinions and over the course of time you will change your opinion as your experiences and beliefs change. Many of my friends can not have children. They want to adopt. There are no babies in this country to adopt so they are forced to go outside the United States to find a child. Aborted babies have no choice. The biggest killing in the world is not war, it’s abortion.

ME at 4:05am November 4
As I explained earlier not everyone has choices. Of course, it is your friend’s choice to insist on adopting a baby, thus needing to go out of the country, instead of adopting one of the millions of older children that need homes and love.

I think I pretty much summed up how I felt about this situation. It just amazes me every time a woman spouts this kind of crap. I feel so naive because I still don’t grasp the fact that some people always feel they need to tell others how to live. I am also amazed by the fact that even when presented with information about things people are still like “Really? Well, you’re still a murderer! You have a choice! You make baby jesus cry!” Seriously? The reason people shouldn’t be allowed to have abortions is because your friends can’t adopt an American baby and have to go overseas? Are you kidding me? Would this woman also be one to complain that mothers on welfare keep having babies and then the government has to keep paying for them? Or that a woman is frigid, or mistreating her husband because she doesn’t want to have sex in order to keep from getting pregnant? Or perhaps she would be the one to vote to ban birth control all together, so women are then forced to propagate. It just all makes me so frustrated and angry and GRRR.

The next quote is really long, so I’m putting it behind a link. The naming scheme is the same as above, except there are some other folks commenting as well. I posted the whole thing so people could follow, but I’m mostly focusing on the words of Sauron.

Gandalf YES WE CAN!!!!!!! 11:05pm – 25 Comments

Sauron at 11:40am November 5
YES WE CAN TAX EVERYONE TO PAY THE POOR! GO UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE! WOOO I LOVE GIVING MY PAY CHECK TO PEOPLE WHO DON’T WORK!!! WOO LET’S BACK OFF EVERYTHING AND FIRST THING TO SAY IS THAT FOUR YEARS MAY NOT BE ENOUGH TIME FOR ALL THIS “CHANGE”…OBAMA/BIDEN ‘12 WOOOOOO

Hell, I don’t care who the president is. He’s just a scapegoat for when shit goes south. The senate is what controls everything, and I’m not bitter towards Obama being elected. I’m bitter towards the fact that a president was elected on the fact that he was Black (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhbH9IYirD0) or the fact that you want unity when you call him an African-American. You want unity, you should drop all the prefixes. Am I a European-American? No. I’m an American. And finally, to embrace unity, you should openly accept other people’s opinions rather than trounce them as ignorant.

Person1 at 12:53pm November 5
wow, Sauron… i never knew u were this ignorant… he won cause he’s black?…. although African-Americans or “black people” have around 12% of the total vote…. trust me, he did not win cause he was black, reverse racism…

Gandalf’s Brother at 1:19pm November 5
Wow Sauron. I don’t know which part of that makes less sense. The fact that you obviously don’t understand his tax plan? The fact that you think fixing our horribly flawed health care system is a bad thing? The fact that the only thing you took from his victory speech is “omg might not all happen in 1 term!111!!11″? The fact that you think the presidency doesn’t matter? The fact that you’re delusional enough to actually think you’re not being bitter, because you obviously are? The fact that you think he was elected only because he was black (http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#USP00p1)? Or the rest of your comment… Which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

That comment really disappoints me.

Sauron at 1:46pm November 5
!2% of the total vote..which is the leaning point of the election. Have you seen which areas voted democrat vs republican. Every area around a major city was where democrats won the most votes.

Yeah the government always fixes things that are flawed. Health care is messed up but a majority of people who have any knowledge on the history of presidential campaign sthat guarantees taxes won’t be raised for the middle and lower classes (yeah people above 200K are going to be taxed yeah yeah…that is never enough). the government never ever budgets enough money to something, esp something as big as this potential universal health care. promising you won’t raise taxes is a political nail in the coffin (it happened to bush 1).

obama won more so with people being upset about the economy and the poor job bush did. did he cause sept 11th….hurricanes….aftermath of dot bombs. He did decide to go to war but a majority of the country was behind him at the time.

Gandalf at 1:50pm November 5
Look, Sauron, you’re missing the entire point. I fully respect other people’s opinions, and you know full well that’s the truth. I have been 100% open to discussing the issues with you and Kaysie both. It’s the two of you that, when presented with facts that back up my beliefs, fall back on fallacies and ignorance of “my family will never vote for a black person anyway” and “socialism, ahhh!” If you had a logical reasoning behind what you believed and presented those reasonings in a respectful manner, I would be more than happy to discuss and debate them with you. If at the end of the day we still disagreed, not because either of us are uninformed but because we have fundamental differences in our beliefs, I could respect the fact that we could agree to disagree. It has become increasingly obvious, however, that neither of you are interested in such a discussion.

Gandalf at 1:50pm November 5
Sauron, the fact of the matter is telling someone who says (and I can’t quote it because it has mysteriously been deleted) “YOU DON’T RING THE CHAPEL BELL AT UGA WHEN A FUCKING DEMOCRAT WINS!! YOU’RE IN THE SOUTH!!!” that they are ignorant (which I didn’t even say) is putting it politely. Similarly, telling someone they are ignorant because they believe Obama won the presidency because he is black (ridiculous in itself) and backing up that claim with evidence from Howard Stern would also be accurate. Yes, Howard Stern found ignorant voters in Harlem voting for Barack Obama. But there are ignorant voters voting for both tickets — Obama, yes, but McCain too. You think there are no white people voting for John McCain solely because he’s white? I know I can name a few, and I’m sure if Howard Stern went to Bumfuck, Georgia, he could ridicule uninformed voters there, too.

FRIEND at 1:50pm November 5
If you would like to discuss issues, such as what Obama truly stands for with regards to his tax plan or how he intends to institute his healthcare reform, then I would love to sit down with you either in person, in this thread of comments, on IM, or anywhere else and talk to you about them, debate them, and try to understand where you are coming from. This country needs polite discourse on the issues so that everyone knows where everyone else stands and compromise can be made, and I fully intend to contribute to that effort. If, however, you are just going to spew ignorance at me and are not interested in an intelligent, grown-up conversation, please, for everyone’s sake, shut the fuck up.

Sauron at 1:51pm November 5
not to mention that the main reason for the economy failing are sub-prime mortages and Obama’s (as well as most of the democratic party) strong support for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac while republicans were trying strongly to force more regulation on the issuing of mortgages.

and the president only signs laws into law. his ideas don’t do him a damn thing if he can’t get the two houses to actually pass laws which have been left leaning since 2006.

Person1 at 1:52pm November 5
i dont understand ur point… don’t major cities usually swing towards democrats…. and dont minorities usually swing left also regardless of the race of the president?…

Sauron at 1:55pm November 5
my main problem throughout all of this has just been the pompousness of obama supporters and liberals esp you gandalf. i did this on purpose to rile you up and prove that you dont know a damn thing about his tax plan nor about the history of how tax plans have ever worked.

i am seriously not bitter about him being elected. what i’m bitter about his the attitude that you have always been right and anyone that has disagreed you have never said anything other than stfu. i bring up jim martin’s campaign slewing facts about Fair Tax and all you say is stfu.

i have given you multiple chances to tell me how you stand for anything else obama and the entire democratic party stands for and you have not once..you have always just said obama is a great speaker (which he is probably top 5 in history of the US) and that mccain sucked it up in debates. it has never been on the issues.

Person2 at 2:06pm November 5
I’m just going to jump in on the middle of this conversation with some words I think most people can agree with. Obama is the most liberal nationally elected official in the United States. If this is the case (and I think it is readily apparent–at least he is way off the deep end left wing), he will not be able to unite the country. His opinions are held by a small minority. (Hence) He was not elected based upon his policies–this should be obvious to everyone. He is a polished speaker/teleprompter reader. So are a lot of the anchors on SportsCenter. He also was a “change” from George Bush. I don’t know if the GOP could have done a thing with any candidate this election because of the mistakes Bush made, especially with Iraq, though this seems to be a more minor issue in light of the recent economic problems, which can hardly be blamed on the Bush Administration. They are a result of undisciplined spending for years–it seems like this is a policy of both the Republicans and Democrats

Person2 at 2:06pm November 5
All I have to say is when we run into socialism by 2012/16 (like the rest of the world… Europe, South America, Canada is getting there), we’ll see what everyone thinks then.

Gandalf’s Brother at 2:16pm November 5
Wow. You’re right, Sauron. I’ve seen the light. ALL the president does is sign bills into laws. For some reason I was thinking he did more. Apparently I was wrong about the massive number of appointees put into office by the president (8000 or so). The supreme court just magically nominates itself, right? I also must have been mistaken that the president can be the author of legislation and use his influence to get it pushed through into law. Also, the president has no influence on the national budget… Right??? Was I also mistaken about the president being the commander in chief of all the armed forces?

Gandalf at 2:21pm November 5
Sauron, the reason I didn’t want to talk to you about Jim Martin, etc. yesterday was because 1) We were at work. 2) You were picking a fight and 3) Your arguments were completely contradictory. So, yes, I think after telling you three times I wasn’t going to have the conversation and you kept pursuing it, “stfu” was the appropriate response. I’ll respond later. I have class now.

Sauron at 2:23pm November 5
The president is to blame for everything — according to almost everyone in America. My whole point of the president not doing anything is that he’s not nearly responsible as people believe he is. Has there been a major supreme court ruling since the line-item veto was eliminated in 1998?

The whole point of me doing this was just to get a reaction out of some people. For gandalf to bring KC into this again was wrong in that it has everything to do with what i believed. she voiced her opinion more so out of frustration that the UGA bell should be rung for UGA not for the success of a party. Whether you wanna call it a success for the country is your own opinion and not shared by a majority of the university nor the state.

This country was built on many conservative principles and in order for this country to unite, a wayyyy left liberal is not the person that can be that leader. Where was all the unity when liberals wanted nothing to do with the Bush admin? Why weren’t they supporting that president. Only when Obama gets elected — we should fully back him right? We won’t support someone who has gone through some of the toughest disasters, but as soon as we have someone who can change all this (really how bad is all of your lives that we need change? am i any different than i was 8 years ago?), everyone else should jump on board when it’s been 8 years of the opposite.

Friend’s Brother at 2:24pm November 5
Oh, and this sentence: “republicans were trying strongly to force more regulation” makes me laugh. The party of small government who preaches “Less regulation! Less regulation!” was trying to enforce more regulation? Point me to an instance where this is actually true. I can point you to several John McCain quotes when he literally said we need less regulation because it’s “big government” and it’s slowing our economy down.

Sauron at 2:26pm November 5
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2008/09/bush-called-for-reform-of-fannie-mae.html

Sauron at 2:30pm November 5
The whole point of this was for kicks honestly. I have gotten really sick of all the Obama supporters (a majority) believing that only through Obama could this country survive. That they were the RIGHT way.

And also, if you check out most people on facebook…a lot of them from african-americans have “we have a black president!” as part of it… Read More. if you can’t tell me that race didn’t play into him being elected then i have no point arguing.

and for the record, i would not have voted for obama if he was white, black, blue, or green, and neither would have kaysie. his stances and views on all issues are so far left wing that it’s sickening to us, and that’s our opinion. our country — as well as the whole world is falling into socialism — what leaders of our country spent 200 years fighting against and we fought the entire cold war over

Sauron at 2:31pm November 5
and Friend’s Brother i know he has a tax plan that has nothing to do with middle class. just off top of my head he plans to tax individuals (small businesses included) with income about 200K. a lot of opponents of this plan (including myself) believe this to be impossible. as you said, the president has a big influence on budget and if you need money for all this reform…it’s almost inevitable that there’s going to be a deficit

Sauron at 2:34pm November 5
and the thing that started this was people ringing the uga bell which both kaysie and i disagreed with…i had to get up at 7:45 this morning and i can’t sleep when i hear a bell (that is like a mile away) going at 2:30 in the morning….kind of ridiculous in my opinion

Person3 at 9:51pm November 5
I cannot believe that I even ran across this discussion during my facebook-surfing, but since I did, I have the chance to say something that I have never said in my life- especially since the 6th grade. I 100% agree with Gandalf. Let’s be educated and polite for once.

Person4 at 9:59pm November 5
NOBODY SHOULD EVER RING THE FUCKING UGA CHAPEL BELL UNLESS THEY ARE RINGING IT FOR OBAMA!!!

Person5 at 11:12pm November 6
“This country was built on many conservative principles” this is the funniest statement ever. No matter what the country was built on doesn’t mean it’s right – or that’s it working – and it’s not working, and secondly, the forefathers of this country were anything but conservatives of their time. In fact, they were known as radicals and traitors who abandoned their country and their religion for the greater good. If only the people of today had the balls to do that…

Even my llama is for Obama – cheers.

Person6 at 9:11am November 7
“And also, if you check out most people on facebook…a lot of them from african-americans have “we have a black president!” as part of it…” And if you look on some dumb-ass University of Texas former back-up Center’s Facebook he said “all the hunters gather up, we have a n@%# in the whitehouse”. So there’s definitely people out there who didn’t vote for Obama because he’s black. I think it was something like well over 90% of the African American population voted for Obama, so yes, race did play into this. But he didn’t win just because he was black. He convinced the majority of Americans that he’s the more qualified candidate to handle the country’s current issues. Black men have run for the presidency in the past and failed completely. So he didn’t win because he’s black. Having an African American in the white house is something for all American’s to be proud of because it speaks to our country’s ability to change and grow.

I would like to point out that Sauron is a 20 something college kid. Most of his comments come across as being directly out of the mouths of his parents. Especially the whole “SOCIALISM!?!?!?!?eleventyone!!!” thing. I mean, seriously, Obama said something 8 years ago and people are harping on it? Eight years ago I was 17. I can’t even imagine now some of the stupid crap I said. The most hilarious-yet-sad thing he says is “really how bad is all of your lives that we need change? am i any different than i was 8 years ago?” Oh, dear sweet boy.

Then he mentioned several times that he just started this to “get a rise” out of people and to “stir things up” and he kept backtracking on what he was saying, and yet insisting he was right. THEN, he finally reveals that he’s really just pissed because the college bell was rung at 2:30am and woke him up. The poor baby he is.

Things like these conversations make me so happy that people got out there and voted. It made me hope that perhaps those who can’t think for themselves aren’t going to win, and maybe the bad guys who sling mud won’t prevail for once. And yet, at the same time, Prop 8 in California was voted in and my hope fades again. I’m terrified of the people around me.